Funding structures are built for #NGO nonsense, not grassroots projects where actual value is created. The #OMN, #indymediaback, and #OGB challenge this, but funders can’t grasp it because they don’t understand value outside institutional framing.
Fixing the funding #blocking, funders need to THINK, not just UNDERSTAND. Right now, they “understand” in the framework of existing institutions, which means they miss the metaphor-driven, emergent nature of the #OMN. Our #Hashtag story is for THINKING, not passive understanding. They are useful tools to push the conversation forward, not dogma to be accepted or rejected. The two often treating them as fixed truths leads to #blocking the needed real change.
We need to break out of this cycle, 20 years of #techshit which is still strengthening the gatekeepers, we can’t keep playing by these rules. The biggest realization here is that truth and metaphor are not the same. Funders, #NGOs, and the #mainstreaming crew think in terms of fixed truths, while real change comes from dynamic thinking. That’s why they keep failing us.
The reality of trying to build real alternatives, without deep-rooted community support, even the best projects wither. The liberal/progressive crowd shouts into the void, but when it comes to actual action, they tend to retreat into safe, performative bubbles rather than engaging with real, messy change.
The Mastodon codebase is an example here, it was designed by copying the #dotcons, so the fundamental social architecture reinforces #stupidindividualism rather than community building. Instead of nurturing federated, collective spaces, it encourages a kind of fragmented, isolated posting, which is why it struggles to grow meaningful movements.
Why do we still find it hard to compost this mess making? At the root of this is likely a lack of shared vision, too many people still mentally operate within the #dotcons framework, even when they try to leave it. Then we have tech that doesn’t align with community of activists needs, #Mastodon (and similar platforms) weren’t built for real social cohesion; they repackage old models with a federated twist. No real commitment from “allies”, the move to the #openweb was ignored by the #mainstreaming left who stay on the #dotcons even though they are evil. The liberal crowd loves theory, but often won’t do the hard, unglamorous work of actually shifting paradigms, this leaves in place structural hostility to #DIY Culture, people are so trained to consume rather than create and maintain that even the “alternative” spaces get stuck replicating the same individualist consumption patterns.
So, what’s next? it’s simple we need to compost this, we could look at:
Building with different codebases that don’t replicate the #dotcons model.
Focusing on non-liberal, real-world community building, finding people willing to work, not just talk.
Reframing “failure” as learning and redirecting energy to something that actually fits the needs of a federated, people-driven network.
The current #fediverse model is only a first step, not itself the answer, for the second step we have the idea’s behind the #OMN. Maybe it’s past time to stop trying to fix broken tools and instead build the truly native path?
Activism is messy. When we push against #mainstreaming, bad faith actors will come at us hard. Our best, often only, defence is sticking to good faith, telling our own stories, and holding onto process. Without this, the dominant narrative (which serves power) will drown out our voices.
The Problem is well-meaning people who wreck everything, in grassroots social movements, some of the biggest obstacles come from inside. People who believe they’re doing good will still do harm, sometimes more harm than outright bad actors. The worst ones often work the hardest. Why? They lack experience with #DIY culture. They unthinkingly worship the #deathcult. Not only that, but they confuse personal virtue with effective action. Shit stinks, but composting it makes flowers grow. The trick is to turn the mess into something productive instead of letting it rot everything.
Mediation is a core #OMN process, we need tools and processes that identify bad faith early (before it spreads), turn well-meaning but harmful actors toward productive paths, filter out the worst behaviours without turning authoritarian. This is a social problem first, a tech problem second. Good moderation, transparent process, and community accountability are the essential path.
Then the #4opens is about making It clearer for outreach, if democracy is survival, then in the digital era, you can’t have real democracy without the #4opens. This has to be at the root of our growing garden of ideas. We need to frame this in a way that connects to real-life impact with questions like: Why does this matter for democracy? How does it protect against the #deathcult? How does it help people step away from #dotcons?
The OMN project is building from the grassroots up because we can’t rely on the “progressive” top-down crowd to do anything meaningful. We need to tell our own stories before we get drowned in their bad narratives. Making the #4opens process simple and clear for outreach is mediation as a core practice (not just a reaction). Turn bad energy into compost, rather than letting it poison the roots we grow from. Keep the focus on real democratic structures, without them, it’s just mess and bad chaos.
This isn’t easy, but it’s the work that needs to be done. Ideas?
The blinding effect of mainstream ideology, whether it’s neoliberalism, conspiracy-laced #spirituality, or rigid #geekproblem worship. These all act as barriers to change, keeping people locked in reactive cycles instead of building something different.
The #deathcult (neoliberalism) ensures its survival by designing failure, carbon offsetting, cap-and-trade, plastic recycling, all engineered to look like solutions while maintaining the status quo. These weren’t mistakes; they were intentional. The same happens in tech, where #encryptionists believe they’re liberating people while locking them into opaque, controlled, isolated paths. Security as fear, rather than trust.
What do we do differently now? We have to stop playing by their rules, whether it’s cancel culture’s purity tests, the process geek bureaucracy, or liberal progressives too afraid to act outside the acceptable neoliberal framework. That means:
Break from #mainstreaming narratives – Stop looking to “official” solutions when they are structured to fail.
Stop feeding fear, cowardice, and greed – Recognize when “safe” choices are actually surrendering power to systems of control.
Step into federated, trust-based models – #openweb and #4opens approaches don’t just shift power; they change how power operates.
Mediating the #geekproblem is core, we have the tools to build alternatives, but they are often blinded by their own logic traps, trapped in a false neutrality that serves power, or in rigid frameworks that make real-world change impossible. If we can challenge this blindness, we can bring them into broader movements instead of leaving them locked in their own subcultures.
Non-geeks need pathways to access, understand, and shape technology.
Decentralisation and federated trust models should be built with social movements, not just coders.
The #4opens is a path, the commons-based approach to software is an example of an alternative that works. The stagnant ideology of capitalism blocks innovation that already exists in open, federated models. But the blinded majority keeps trying to push radical tech back into the broken frameworks they understand instead of embracing real alternatives. That’s the cycle we need to break.
If we don’t step outside of our own ideological traps, we won’t see the paths that already exist. The world doesn’t have to be this way, but we need to start living the alternatives, not just critiquing the failures.
What did I get from this event: Cybercrime is no longer only about stolen credit cards and leaked emails, it has become a battleground for national security. This was the focus of the conversation between Professor Ciaran Martin and Dr Max Smeets, a new kind of war, ransomware has evolved from crude digital extortion into a highly sophisticated business model. It’s no longer just about money, it disrupts critical infrastructure, healthcare, and entire governments. The NHS cyberattack in London and the Costa Rican national emergency in 2022 illustrate its devastating impact.
Smeets explains how ransomware groups now operate like legitimate businesses, complete with branding, customer service, and even guarantees. If they fail to decrypt your files after payment, their reputation suffers. Many provide a free decryption demo to prove their credibility—demonstrating the paradox of trust within crime.
The geopolitics of cybercrime often overlaps with national interests. Many ransomware groups originate from Russia, where they operate with implicit state tolerance, as long as they avoid targeting Russian businesses. Russian secret services sometimes leverage these groups for political ends, though the connections remain murky.
Other states are now stepping into the ransomware scene, Ukraine – Once a hub for cybercrime, now co-opting hackers into its war effort, with groups like MB65 supposedly working in support of the state. North Korea & Israel – Expanding their ransomware operations, possibly for both financial and intelligence purposes. China – Running state-controlled ransomware campaigns, but is the goal money or data?
Smeets argues that Western states do not operate ransomware groups, at least not openly. But if cybercrime is now a tool of state power, will governments start adopting more aggressive tactics? We are already seeing discussions about hacking back, sanctions, and even assassinations and drone strikes against cybercriminals.
The Evolution of ransomware has moved beyond lone hackers and small groups. It has professionalised, with specialised teams handling different tasks: Some focus on technical exploits. Others on negotiation and victim management. Others still on money laundering. English-speaking countries are prime targets, as criminals can easily understand and monetise stolen data.
Originally, ransomware groups operated hierarchically, relying on top-down trust structures. Now, they are shifting to decentralised and federated models, outsourcing different parts of the process to specialist teams. This makes them more resilient and harder to disrupt.
How can this be mediated? Smeets offers several strategies to undermine ransomware networks:
Disrupt trust – Leak internal communications and sow distrust within groups.
Expose operational methods – Make it harder for them to operate in the shadows.
Sanction financial networks – Make it harder to launder ransom payments.
A ban on ransom payments won’t end ransomware, but it might shift attackers toward easier targets. The core question remains: Is ransomware just about money, or is it a new tool for states to exert power in the digital age?
My view is an alternative path, might social and economic change, the #4opens and redundant data flows work. In a world where cybercrime thrives on secrecy and centralised control, could radical transparency be part of the solution? The #4opens philosophy suggests an alternative: highly redundant, open-data systems that resist extortion because no single entity holds all the power. If data is widely distributed and accessible, ransomware loses much of its leverage. This is a shift from reactive defence to proactive resilience, a challenge to both cybercriminals and #mainstreaming vertical state actors and culture. This is already a core idea behind both the#OMN and #Fediverse networks, but yes we are talking about both economic and social models and paths shifting fundamentally, it’s a project.
The current political and economic systems don’t just sustain the mess, we are drowning in them. Every major institution, from governments to corporations, actively pushes crisis after crisis, while refusing to deal with the root causes of the disasters they create. For decades, politicians across the spectrum have fuelled endless wars and military interventions, while militarising domestic police forces. Justified global instability and repression in the name of “security” while making the world more dangerous. Celebrated economic growth, while wages stagnate, inflation crushes ordinary people, and skyrocketing rents make survival a daily struggle.
This directly leads to the ecological collapse we are living through, record heat waves, wildfires, extreme weather, it is not an accident. It is the result of decades of environmental neglect, corporate greed, and political cowardice. None of the major parties have taken meaningful action; they always in the end prioritise profit over the survival of the planet and future generations.
At the same time, the state clamps down on dissent with mass incarceration and police crackdowns, which aren’t about safety, they’re about control. Social movements are repressed, not because they are wrong, but because they threaten the status quo. Then the public anger at #neoliberal policies is hijacked by demagogues like #Farage and #Trump, who sell hate, racism, and authoritarianism as the alternative. But this does not bring solutions, only the march towards #fascism.
#KISS real change is not coming from these institutions. We need to step away from the #mainstreaming mess by rejecting the ongoing pushing of “common sense” of liberal, neoliberal, and fascist agendas. To organise and resist what we oppose, and push towards building something different. To create alternative communities and economies, humanistic, decentralised, and free from the grip of collapsing #mainstreaming structures.
This isn’t only a negative fight, it’s a positive necessity. The world built by the #deathcult is falling apart. We either allow ourselves to be dragged down with it, or we joyously build something new.
The world we live in is shaped by 40 years of #neoliberalism and #postmodernism, both of which have systematically dismantled radical change and challenge paths that used to exist. To reclaim these paths, we now need to reject the illusions of “common sense” fed to us by the #deathcult and reboot our social view from a place of clarity. This is where the #hashtags come into use, acting as linking/flow tools for navigating, understanding, and breaking free from the mess we’re all in.
The #nothingnew hashtag is a simple and effective (#KISS) framework for understanding where we went wrong and how to start moving forward again. It rejects the dominant neoliberal and postmodern ideologies that have smothered radical politics for four decades. Instead, it seeks to reboot social change by returning to the original modernist path, rooted in progress, structure, and tangible social transformation.
Once we re-establish this foundation, we can move beyond it to build #somethingnew. But without a starting point, all attempts at change remain trapped in the same mess and fog that has been #blocking in the status quo for too long. The modernist approach of clarity, direct action, and meaningful social structures needs to replace the disorienting, fragmented logic of postmodern cynicism that has paralysed social movements and left the field open for growing fascist dominance.
#geekproblem – Technology, Control, and the Worship of Power
The #geekproblem is a complex challenge, one that sits at the heart of many of our current struggles. While technology could be a liberating force, it has instead been shaped into a tool for control, both in the hands of capitalist class and within geek culture itself. The problem stems from, that, geeks, historically, have been builders and problem solvers. But many have a deeply ingrained need for CONTROL, which is fundamentally out of balance with the collaborative ethos of modernism. Over the last 40 years, as technology has concentrated power, geek culture has been co-opted by the #deathcult, prioritising power, profit, and authoritarianism over openness and freedom.
To fix this, we need to take the “problem” out of the “geek.” That means confronting the fetishisation of control, hierarchy, and technocratic elitism that pervades much of tech culture. This is not a #KISS problem, it requires real and deep reflection, social engagement to bring back into focus the reclamation of technology as a force for liberation.
The #deathcult is a blunt and direct metaphor for neoliberalism, the ideology of destruction that has dominated the world for the last 40 years. This is a #KISS idea because it’s simple, Neoliberalism isn’t about building, it’s about extraction, enclosure, and control. It disguises itself as common sense, but in reality, it is an economic death spiral, for the planet, for workers, for public services, and for communities. Every time you hear markets presented as the solution to our problems, you are hearing the voice of the #deathcult.
For an example of this, just look at #UN COP process, where the world’s response to climate catastrophe was to double down on markets and profit-driven “solutions.” We are in a truly nasty mess because we have spent decades blindly worshipping a system destined to destroy us.
Breaking free from the mess, understanding the #hashtags can push clarity to conversations, as it hard to talk “common sense” with such a clear rejection of the confusion and stagnation that has kept us locked into #mainstreaming dogma.
Using these frameworks, we begin to rebuild a movement that is rooted in reality, not neoliberal delusions. The question is, are we ready to do this work?
To look at why this is important, we need to move outside the comfort zones of current #mainstreaming thinking. Let’s start by touching on the role of #protestcamps in direct action: protest camps are temporary activist spaces set up in public areas to bring attention to social, environmental, and political issues. These camps create a direct action environment where people gather, discuss, and demonstrate. They range from #fluffy (peaceful and symbolic) to #spiky (disruptive and confrontational), depending on the nature of the cause and the activists involved.
This raises the question of who uses these strategies and spaces, some examples of protest movements: #Occupy Movement – Challenged economic inequality and corporate influence. #ClimateCamp – A radical grassroots direct action movement to counter #climatechaos through awareness, policy pressure, and direct disruption. Climate camp was active in multiple countries, it peaked in the late 2000s and early 2010s, influencing both public debate and government action. #CriticalMass – A decentralized cycling activism movement, founded in 1992, that uses monthly mass bike rides to reclaim public space and challenge car culture.
These examples are all of grassroots politics operates from the bottom up, empowering people to engage directly rather than relying on mediating political parties or institutions. This long traditional path give communities a voice and enable change outside the often #blocking traditional power structures. Direct action & grassroots politics is always the working change and challenge when activism bypasses traditional political intermediaries, using disruptive tactics like strikes, sit-ins, and blockades.
Together, these methods provide the non #mainstreaming democratic and practical ways to challenge authority, disrupt harmful policies, and drive real change. Let’s look at another example, the debate around #XR (Extinction Rebellion), founded in 2018, #XR uses nonviolent civil disobedience to push governments to act on the #climatecrisis. The movement is divisive, some see it as #spiky, using direct action to force political change. Others argue it’s too #fluffy, adhering to liberal ideas of legality and nonviolence, that limits its radical potential. Whether #XR is a radical or liberal movement remains an active debate, but the impact it has had on public discourse and activism is undeniable. This active fluffy/spiky debate is core to affective grassroots activism.
This experience is what we need to pass onto the #4opens alternatives & horizontalist paths in tech, which to often have the assumption that liberal legality alone will fix systemic problems, which is an easy to see #geekproblem fantasy. A better path is learning from the history of activism, native #FOSS and #4opens structures, which yes are not without challenges, need this to build alternatives that avoid the false hope that #mainstreaming institutions will voluntarily dismantle themselves.
As I keep highlighting, activism isn’t separate from tech development, with the #FOSS traditions coming from tech activism already. Movements like #Indymedia, #Fediverse, and #OMN show that #FOSS paths can be built with social movements in mind. If we don’t shape our own digital tools, they will, and are, co-opted by #dotcons and restricted by #mainstreaming “common sense”. The solution? Rebuild from the ground up—not just by resisting, but by actively creating the alternatives we want to see.
The Open Governance Body (#OGB) is a radical approach to decentralized governance, designed from the experience of the failures of existing governance models by combining activist organizing techniques with decentralized federated technology like #ActivityPub. It provides a very flexible governance framework that can be used across different communities, from local markets to the #Fediverse itself, creating a scalable and human-centric decision-making path.
Examples: Local Market Self-Governance: Stakeholders—such as vendors, customers, and authorities—can collaboratively make decisions without reliance on centralized institutions. Fediverse and Online Communities: Federated instances can adopt the #OGB for cooperative decision-making, ensuring grassroots control over digital spaces.
Why this path works, activist organizing as a foundation: Social movements have driven radical change for centuries using decentralized, trust-based governance. The #Fediverse itself is a proof of this concept, it has demonstrated that federated, open-source technologies can scale without corporate control. Human-centric governance is built by merging these time-tested approaches, the #OGB fosters sustainable, non-hierarchical governance models rooted in #4opens values. This combination ensures adaptability and resilience against co-option by #mainstreaming forces.
Then we have permissionless rollout, the #OGB is designed to spread organically, self-initiated setup: Any individual or group can start an instance, onboard participants, and begin governance discussions. This will push network effect growth, as more people engage, the system scales naturally, shaping governance from the ground up. This bottom-up path challenges traditional top-down governance structures and paves the way for a more equitable #openweb. This needs supporting with more political paths, funding and support.
Using #RSS and #ActivityPub as core technologies offers significant advantages in grassroots politics:
Decentralization: Resistant to censorship and corporate control.
Interoperability: Enables seamless communication across platforms.
Transparency: Enhances accountability and public engagement.
Ownership & Autonomy: Empowers people to control their own data.
Accessibility: Breaks down barriers for marginalized voices.
The #Fediverse exemplifies this by offering a decentralized alternative to #dotcons. But the is still an often invisible ideological battle for the #openweb, the issues we aim to mediate is that programming is never neutral. Ideology inevitably shapes the systems we build. We see this in:
The Fediverse mirroring the #dotcons, many platforms unintentionally replicate centralized models rather than embracing true decentralization.
The risk of #mainstreaming takeover, without active resistance, corporate and NGO interests will attempt to co-opt the #openweb.
The #OMN as a counterforce, focused on linking alternative and grassroots media, the #OMN is part of a broader push to prevent the enclosure of the digital commons.
The #openweb needs to remain a space for radical inclusion and self-determination, free from corporate and state control. This challenging of the status quo need real alternative paths, to get this we must critically examine the ideological underpinnings of our current world and ask:
#StupidIndividualism is the norm, but what would non-stupid individualism look like?
#Deathcult economics dominate, what would a non-neoliberal system look like?
Billions have been wasted on libertarian #Encryptionists fantasies, what’s next?
The answers to these #blocking forces lie in building, not just critiquing, alternative paths and structures that embody the change we wish to see. The #OGB and wider #OMN projects, and the #4opens framework are part of this effort to reclaim community, autonomy from the ground up.
There are a lot of mental health issues that are pushed over us in what remains of our open alt spaces, we need ways to mediate the damage, to help the people who spread this mess. The path of the #mainstreaming is corrosive to the alt cultures it feeds on. The cycle is always the same:
Radical ideas emerge → They are raw, open, and challenging.
Mainstreaming co-opts them → Dilutes them into something marketable.
They become performative → Used as branding by the #fashernista left, while the right weaponises the left’s discarded tools (like direct action).
The original movement is discredited → The real alternatives get buried under a mess of victimhood narratives, NGO bureaucracy, and “respectable” gatekeeping.
Composting this mess, one way is radical openness, but in a way that is intentional rather than naïve:
#4opens as a grounding principle → The more we expose the internal workings of a movement, the harder it is for power politics and NGO rot to take hold.
Affinity-based organising → Trust-based, decentralised, and responsive, avoiding the traps of rigid structures that get hijacked.
Resisting the urge to close → Every time a movement feels under attack, there’s a knee-jerk reaction to centralise and control. That’s how we lose.
Recognising how #dotcons manipulate OPEN/CLOSED → They’ve mastered open for them, closed for us, and turned it into a system of social control.
To take these step we need to admit we live in a gatekeepered world, yes the old media gatekeepers are gone, but what we have now is worse. The illusion of openness in the #dotcons masks a totalitarian model of control that makes traditional media censorship look almost quaint. Until we acknowledge that, every alt project will keep getting swallowed or broken from within.
The challenge for #OMN & #openweb is that we need to rebuild media and organising from a place of resilience, not just reaction. The #geekproblem, the #NGO mess, and the left’s failure to defend its own tools have left us in a weak position, but there’s still compost to grow something from. So, who’s ready to get their hands dirty?
The #openweb is a much better framing than #fediverse when trying to break out of the tribal bubbles. It speaks to something broader and historical, whereas #fediverse is just one (flawed) expression of those ideas.
Why #openweb matters, it’s not new, which is actually a strength, this is the original internet vision before it got hijacked by #dotcons. It avoids the self-referential nature of the #fediverse, which often turns into a closed loop of devs talking to devs. It’s a term that can bridge communities rather than reinforcing in-group/out-group dynamics.
The limits of mirroring #dotcons, the first stage of the #fediverse, was largely about copying corporate social media platforms but without the profit motive. That was useful, but it’s hit a ceiling. Why? Lack of real community support – Devs build stuff, but actual social infrastructure is missing. Scaling the wrong way – Just copying individualist, engagement-driven models doesn’t actually create an open, healthy network. Reinforcing the #geekproblem – Developers remain in control, not communities, which leads to predictable NGO-style behaviour creeping in.
Shifting the balance in tech, we can’t just keep replicating the #mainstreaming mess in different codebases. The tech itself needs to reflect the values of the #openweb, decentralised in governance, not just code, community-led, not dev-controlled, process transparency, not just ‘open-source’ performatively.
Dealing with the #geekproblem, devs are used to solving problems in isolation, but society isn’t a coding challenge. They often bring #NGO behaviour into the #fediverse, expecting deference to their authority—and then act surprised when there’s kickback.
Being #openweb native, if you’re coming from the NGO world, you’ll have a much better time if you actually engage with the native culture of the #openweb rather than trying to impose external hierarchies. Otherwise, you’ll just recreate the same socially and self-destructive patterns that have wrecked everything else. So yeah, to boost this thinking, we need to start using #openweb more and move beyond the #fediverse branding trap.
The #4opens and #nothingnew both cut through 99% of the crap so the few people who are going to do something can do something that would be useful rather than unless. From useful you get a few more people, rinse and repeat, and you get social change and challenge, even if this is repressed or implodes, it will be more fun, and interesting than the current mess making.
The last 40 years of #mainstreaming has been nothing but a slow, suffocating descent into #climatechaos, driven by a #deathcult logic that normalised destruction as “common sense.” The worst part? A lot of our critical thinking is still shaped by the corresponding #postmodernism, which has left us floundering in relativism, unable to take action beyond fragmented, individualist gestures.
We’ve utterly failed to build functional alternatives in the last decades. The social, political, and technological landscapes have been co-opted, watered down, and turned into managed dissent. Now, we’re stuck in the wreckage, watching the same people who pushed these failed agendas still setting the terms of debate. Time to #KISS name it, challenge it, and compost it.
Open vs Closed is the core struggle, when activism falls into a shitty, stinking process, it’s always because of control-freakery, and there are only two paths:
Open Process
If a project is meant to be open, then trying to close things down and hide the dysfunction will only make things worse. The stink seeps out, poisoning everything, the project’s core, its relationships, and every decision made stinks. The dysfunction becomes baked into the structure, leading to a downward spiral of more control, more secrecy, more rot. Eventually, you’re left with an entirely closed project, despite all the performative openness.
Closed Process
If a project is meant to be closed, then it survives by kicking out dissent, tightly controlling information, and maintaining hierarchical power until it either runs out of funding or loses public goodwill. Trying to “open up” a closed project without a total upheaval is nearly impossible, the repressed dysfunction will explode the moment it’s exposed.
NGOs & Activists: This is filled with false open, most NGOs and activist groups operate in a messy hybrid of open/closed. NGOs pretend to be open with consultations and focus groups, but the real decisions happen in closed rooms to maintain funding and careers. Activist groups start open, but as they grow, they close up due to power consolidation, internal conflict, and scale limitations. Trust-based affinity group organising remains one of the few viable models that doesn’t automatically lead to closure, but that’s a whole other discussion.
The is a “Dogma” of open, we need to be unapologetically clear, open projects must stay open, or they rot. Closed projects will never be meaningfully opened without collapse. NGOs & fake-open activism serve as control mechanisms, not movements for real change. This is the challenge we keep running into: Open vs Closed. How do we stop repeating the same mistakes? We don’t have time
Just to remind you, the last 40 years of #mainstreaming has been a #deathcult when you look at our slow drift into #climatechaos, we can’t keep simply repeating this mess.
