geekproblem – Page 2 – Hamishcampbell

How should the hyper local indymedia rollout

A sideways look at the death of UK indymedia and things to learn for its reboot.

With federation, we don’t have to go down the path of a “virtual silo” this issue was one of the reasons indymedia was ripped apart. The desire for security, privacy and control of having it all on one server controlled by the “elite” geeks compared to having lots of different servers controlled by different groups. The final rip that killed UK was this very issue.

The fediverse is the reboot of the loose network based on trust and clearly against the centralized silo based on control

Not sure if the is a good history on this, most indymedia history is crap so best to go back to the original source. Think a lot is on archive.org

Q. Should IMC self-hosting be based on something like freedombone – easy to install, maintain, etc

A. Yes… though to seed it as a testing roll out we can host a few before passing um onto the community’s. But the idea is the same as freedombone which is a fab project. BUT as a outreach tool has real imitations due to ISP’s and crap routers in peoples homes, me and me brother tom (who is proper geeky) spent 3 days trying and failing to get it running, a little to do with freedombone and a lot to do with his rooter refusing to do port forwarding reliably.

As with everything OMN we take all paths, for the hyperlocal:

* Home install fab (but likely complex)

Bashrc is likely to add the indymedia server to freedombone so that’s the home install covered

* Community local install, good but could fall for the #geekproblem

Is for the geeks, so they can sought it out for themselves from the sourcecode.

* Easy VPS script – good anufe likely it will work

This one we have to make easy, but this is not a priority till after the test rollout.

* us hosting it on a central server bad but probably the right thing to do for the test rollout.

Is actually the second one just done badly 😉

Todo for the test rollout

* Get the peertube (@RCS currently AWOL) and searx (@jolek78) with @sanders making it happen back online and updated.

* Get a test instill of hyperlocal code to give feedback (@bashrc)

* find small community’s for test rollout, have lifeboats IMC, and a few others in mind (Hamish)

Give us a shout if you have ideas or connections on these.

A look at the internal mess of the uk indymedia project

The project i like to point to as an example. The indymedia project an early alt-media network that spread the use of open source software and #4opens organizing around the world at the turn of the century. In the UK the was a #geekproblem vs #openweb fight that became nasty over what we would now understand as “activertypub” the fedivers vs more centralized silo approach. In the UK you can see this stress point fought as a proxy war over #RSS

The #openweb aggregation side were sold a dud by the #fashernistas being swayed by the #geekproblem It was obvious that the project had to change and move away from central servers to a more aggregation model. BUT the movement was torpedoed by an obviously pointless opensource project instead of implementing a existing standerds based RSS they created there BETTER, BRIGHTER flavor which was of coures incomparable with everyone else.

This is an example of a “better” but obviously pointless open source project and also destructive behaver. The #indymedia project in the UK was ripped apart internally from this same devide in the end. A bad “open source” outcome. You can find similar behaver today in the fedvers if you look.

Its a intresting thing to look at. Actually you can see 3 active sides in the internal uk #indymedia mess and important to see the outcome that they ALL LOST in the end.

1) #encryptionists (being pushed by the #geekproblem)

2) #fashernistas (being influenced by the #geekoroblem)

3) #openweb being sidelined by the rest

1) The first resisted and blocked aggregation and #RSS from privacy and “securaty” issues.

2) The second is a obviously failed compromise by keeping control of “there” own better, non comparable RSS format.

3) The last, the one the whole project was based on were ignored and sidelined.

The #IMC project soon became irrelevant and died.

The currency of the 21st century is information

What is the effect of #geekproblem of privacy and encryption and there fetishization of crypto currencies?

The markit (liberal individualism and private property that comes with it) provides information on value based on explotion greed and selfishness.

Opendata and meta data provides information on value based on connection, cooperation and altruism.

A #4opens approach spreads connection, cooperation and altruism into our social world.

A market approach (privacy, indivdalisam and private property based on encryption) allows expotation, greed and selfishness to be at the center of our society.

This is a old ideological and political divide that is not talked about at all in the #geekproblem as the is “no such things as society only individuals and there family’s ”.

Sociatey is based on social norms, walking down the street in safety – soft

Code is hard normes. A policeman on every street corner – hard

The question that we need answers to is how can we talk soft (social) power to the hard power (code) of the #geekproblem when for them such norms are invisible.

Figleafs are dangerous in tech.

The #geekproblem fight between open/closed is a dangerous game of figleaf. Media is always done in the open so trying to secure and close this is completely self defeating. In social networks its more complex, privacy in open is sudo anonymous at best. In closed in theory you can have secure p2p connections, but for 99.9% of people running on standard corporate hardwere the is no way to trust this so agen sudo anonymous. So technology could be “secure” for .001% of people maybe.

Please make this clear when talking about these issues as figleafs are dangerous.

For the social change we need

For the social change we need to survive as a society and flourish as a species we need to take some time to go back to basics

All economic syteams are based an unspoken idea of what it is to be human. To be clear if you do not have an understanding of this you have little understanding of anything that matters in the era of #XR

Lets look back to early cristanerty to highlight this idea.

* The old testament is based on a negative view of humanity, greed, selfishness and gluttony are the motivations that god is controlling by forcing us to bow down to his authority.

* The new testament is based on love and common humain society.

* Capitalism is based on greed and the worst parts of human nature

* Socialism is based on altruism and the best parts of human nature

As you can see the divide between these different ideology’s goes back a long way and likely to the dawn of human history.

These simple groupings live within supposedly sister ideology’s think for example of the horizontal’ists and the vertical’ists in progressive movements represent the different views.

When we start to understand this you can use this clear difference to make judgments on what has value and what is destructive in our current society.

The only question that matters is the balance between trust and fear is a useful way of looking at this.

If you are interested in technology and society

Open/closed a look at the issues in tech

The idea of total control manifested in the master/slave relationship of computers and programmers is a core of geek culture.

Open is about attempting to share power in society.
Closed is about attempting to block social power.

The #geekproblem at root in our society is about liberalism excepting the division of the state and the citizen, its about the liberal ideal of individualism “the is no such thing as society only individuals and there family” though in the case of the #geekproblem its just the individual and not so much the family. Our current #geekproblem is a child of Thatcher and Ragon and the neo-liberalism they embedded into our social minds.

Its interesting to see that the #dotcons (the right) have overcome this #geekproblem and enslaved code, programmers and the network to the control of the capital (and the state) and its sad that the left are children in this game.

A way out of this mess is to clearly reject the “closed” ideas in tech and instead re-embrace “open”. Thus unblocking the social flow, what we do with this flow (dangerous stuff) is up to us. We can recognise the danger yes, but to balance that we MUST recognise the disaster we are in now.

“Closed” feeds and re-enforce disaster and in NO WAY helps society to move from this mess #XR

We need flow not blocking.

Its simple.

What is the OMN

The #OMN its a anything in and anything out – mediated by trust database/network.

It’s up to “commernerty” what they do with this and up to the individuals what commerty they choose or if a bit geeky can be an individual. it’s just soup (data soup) of course my project is to build a media/news network out of this other people can build other things #OMN

The data soup is fed by folsonmeny flows of tagged data objects mediated by trust. The consumption is based on the same. All with a nice UI

Lossy, redundancy, trust are features, the #geekproblem seeing these as problems needs to be overcome.

Being based on the #4opens am looking at Odata as the rest API core https://www.progress.com/blogs/odata-faqs-why-should-rest-api-developers-use-odata as this is an outgrouth of #atompub and #RSS and comes from a long process of open development #indymedia What do you think?

The exciting bits are the “flows of trust” bulding commertys, the tech and code are just tools.

* Nothing new

* All #4opens

* Good UI

All code is ideology manifested

Q. Some interesting things, mostly the collaborative pad. As I said some time back, this is how I would (obviously) try running this effort – pads not threads.

In terms of general direction, the activitypub etc doesn’t inspire me in terms of rethinking media. I will continue my #postmedia project, which has quite different axioms, and release when ready.

In general I don’t see the linked info neither as theoretically(specs) nor practically(code) strong

A. Diversity of strategy is a good thing but the #geekproblem of everyone doing there own thing is a bad thing – riding the contradictions 🙂

* What’s your argument against activertypub exactly?

* What do you think of rebooting the indymedia project?

One thing I can say the desire to be king is pointless when it fails and dangerous when it rarely succeeds. If this is a main motivation then no good humain outcome is possible. Basic st

A. What is a #postmedia project? it sounds like a alt-right libatrean, which is simply incompatible with social #4opens?

linked info? is being done without coding – it’s a folksonomy. A trust based social project not a technological project. It’s not there on purpose, which is obviously why you cannot find it 🙂

The social nature of the project. Because there is no code as we are simply in every case repurposing existing codebases, existing social relations and existing processes.

it’s an interesting subject.

I am trying to get coders to stop doing pointless/dangerous things with their skills and time. This sums up why i talk a lot about the #geekproblem

* pointless, that’s just about everything they do have always done.

* dangurus, that’s when they push #dotcons and make it work.

Of course this is more complex than it looks, how do you define “useful” we can wank ideology at this point.

A message for my #dotcons frends

When people deny the history of reposabilerty then they deny reality and join the “post truth world” of Trump and Boris.

The majority of my #failbook friends are both sad and bad on this subject as they don’t remember the times they argued that the #dotcons were not evil and cat memes were the right thing to do as the world heated up and is now catching fire.

A lot of the more tech minded run workshops on campining on #dotcons as our ones healthy #openweb tools were ripped apart by our home grown #geekproblem

You guys need to get busy with spades to compost the shit you spread around in the digital world. And spreading more shit just makes the alt more smelly and uninviteing.

I put up with years of trolling on this subject. it’s a good time to balance this and for the first time in a while do something useful. At some point you have to support a real grassroots media project.

https://unite.openworlds.info/indymedia

Hope you understand that this is not a #geekproblem project and not pushing #fashernistas agenders and a clear move away from #failbook and the #dotcons in general #OMN

OMN is a trust based project

The idea is to use human moderation flows as a feature to spread federation wider. Each flow has to first be created then is either trusted – ie they are going to keep posting good stuff or moderated that sometimes they post good stuff.

So the system only scales if human beings reach out to each other to build trust links. If everything stays on moderation then the workload soon becomes unmanageable or the site is overrun by irelevance or spam. In both cases the site sesses to be useful. This is a core feature of the network to push human scale federated trust communities.

The only way to get a useful site is to build a big healthy community (with wide groups of admins and moderators) or a small focus trust group based on quality choice of connections. Both are good outcomes, and what the #OMN is about building.

If we build in automation then we will have lots of middling quality sites that are borderline useful. A signal to noise issue. There will be less motivation to spesherlise and the network will likely fail because of this.

Less is more is a core of the project. The #geekproblem is the desire to improve the network with better tools

Spam and low quality posts have to find a way to flow into the network and when they are in they need to then flow to the quality parts of the network.

The problem we face is that there might not be any sites allowing new content in… so this will lead to the need to set up more outlying sites and spread the network wider and narrow the focus of these new sites to keep admin down, spreading the network wider and narrowing the focus etc.

You see an organic growth of base sites narrow/local/subject to middle sites regional/topic to top sites outreach/mainstreaming.

The bottom sites feedup to the top sites both by quality tags subject feeds and aggregation editorial articles. In both cases these directly link back to the bottom content sites.

The traditional value pyramid is reversed – the top sites are easey to setup and admin but hard to add value to. The middle sites are the core of the project sifting and adding value vier aggregation. All the true value lies at the base were the publishing happens

https://unite.openworlds.info/indymedia