An #openweb organic intellectual,technologist and part of the #OMN
The indieweb is strongly individualism, where the Fediverse is more community based, though says it’s individualism to get #mainstreaming outreach (white lie).
So it depends on your (mostly unspoken) view on politics. In this they use overlapping tech but for different use, they are both #openweb native.
#fashernista and the media are always a problem that is hard to do anything about. They shift the focus from the grassroots to themselves and tell #mainstreaming stories because this is what the media wants to hear.
The undercurrents that is the story drafts back into the flow and nothing is understood, no change or challenge happens.
We are sold for some ones fragile egos moment of feeling important.
This is crap behaviour.
The “better” #closedweb (ISP intranets) was “surprisingly” destroyed by the “inferer” #openweb, which then exploded in use to spread everywhere. The #mainstreaming thinking then tried and failed to recapture this #4opens project for ten years as it takes up global space, and was a real challenge change, that the “common sense” said should not exist. This working alternative was finally sold out by our own #fahernistas, who bribed with money and statues members of the “unthinking” #geekproblem to build the #dotcons that rapidly took over the #openweb space.
Our wider activist #fashernistas created “liberal stories” about how embracing the #dotcons was a good path. The wider #fahernistas flocked to these #closedweb spaces to grasp at the real early power they provided, after society had finished this shift, the bate and switch took this power away, and we were left with “servalence capitalism” and no social power, as was obvuse at the time it was a con.
Our #fashernistats then pissed tech change/challenge agenst the wall for ten years. While the #openweb user facing technology withered, ignored and irrelevant to #mainstreaming. A few years ago we had an “accidental” #openweb reboot with #activitypub and soon after pushing of the next generation of #closedweb projects with #web03 leaving us in the current messy times.
Yes now the #dotcons are roting, but the #openweb is only a small change challenge due to our #fahernistas and #geekproblem actively #BLOCKING the change challenge inherent to the project.
Where are we now and what can we learn from this? Liberalism in tech are often active prats, co-opting, bait and switch and taking the easy #NGO funded path when the choice comes. They are #friendlyenemies, even when they deny this with all their “common sense”. Ideas to mediate this, please?
Do you except that “new” is often #deathcult (neo-liberalism) and #postmodernism because this is “common sense” what is your plan/idea to get around these problems?
I have had 20 years of “new” and am very underwhelmed, actually it’s almost all #blocking or adding to the #techshit to be composed. This is obviously a problem that needs to be mediated, what is your plan/process to have a better outcome?
Remember that the only thing that has worked in the last 10 years has been copying #dotcons with #activertypub every themselves has failed, what can we learn from this?
This is an important question that the #OMN project mediates.
Q. We need to be honest about this
A. I joined here only recently to experiment with the Fediverse, and that’s my first impression too. The two hottest kinds of topic I found were meta discussions such as “Twitter users will come here now”, and “the system is fucking with us using vaccines”.
Q. we build at Alt but will people come, some will. Moving away from the #dotcons it’s a tiny step we need to do more, MUCH more #OMN
A. people use the mainstream media because there they can find the information they want, their friends, and have a pleasant experience with highly usable tools. Only a very small group of people would use a privacy-oriented social media with complexities such as a federated network just because “fuck the system”. Even a nerd with the obsession for cybersecurity and privacy like me has an hard time finding interesting stuff here. And, believe me, I’m trying.
Q. this is an excellent question to ansear.
There are two points:
Firstly, we had exalent outreach alt media around for 20 years, #indymediaback is an example project that we need coders to help reboot.
Secondly, to think that we/you have any chance of grassroots progressive social change challenge without working alt media is a fatal fantasy. We can clearly see this in the mess of the last ten years.
We have the codeing tools #activitypub, and we have the historical social models that we know used to work, but had scaling issues.
The #OMN plan is simple, bring the new working technical scaling to the old working social models/process #4opens
As you say the fedivers made up of copies of #dotcons is too small a step.. We have to take the next step if we have any seruse ideas about change/challenge of the current #mainstreaming #deathcult
We have to change, challenge our social ideas and social process in what is left of the #openweb
This is less fundermentalist than it sounds as open-source (free softer) development already works mostly #4opens so the change being pushed by the #OMN is #nothingnew
This should be easy, but #BLOCKING has obviously to be overcome, dig, plant, grow. Compost the #techshit, repeat. One good first step is to be honest about our own funding.
A. being “alternative” is not a strong selling point because you define yourself relatively to something else instead of having your own identity. This dooms you to be always in the shadow of “the mainstream” as a sort of second choice.
Q. Being alternative USED to have a strong identity as did #openweb and yes you are right they DO NOT have this any more, this is a problem we should change challenge not except as “common sense”.
Think before replying as this conversation is more about agreeing then division, focus is good.
Q. Doing the same thing in the same context and expecting different results is one of the clinical definitions of insanity. 😀
A. That is EXACTLY the #mainstreaming problem the #hashtages are about, well said. If it’s not different, it’s not working #nothingnew
WE have solved this problem in the past but have not had a way to scale these solutions, now we have a technological way of scaling but have lost the “working activist culture” to social use with the technological scaling.
This is the story and the path, let’s get biblical.
Q. One difficulty that I personally have with your communication methods is your use of hashtags that convey meaning to the people that already know and use them, but are opaque to someone who doesn’t know what they mean.
You end up being only able to communicate with people within your own filter bubble.
What are the ranges of different patterns of communication that you have tried?
Which ones worked more effectively with which audiences?
A. As we talked about before, the #hashtags are a collective social story, but what is obvious is that if there is no collective there is no story… So if you want the story, build the collective to tell the story.
Bit of a chicken and egg issue, ay.
It’s #4opens non #mainstreaming change challenge… If nothing changes there is no challenge, thus it’s completely up to “us” not “me” am doing my “modernist” story, as you say if we all do different story’s the is no outcome.
Someone at some point has to add to the story, retell it, shape it and use it for change challenge.
I repeat, I have done my bit, been at the front line of this social story for 40 years and am now sailing off on my lifeboat.
What are “we” doing with this story, that has passed through “my” hands
Anyone can pick up the power of the story or let it fall as sand as we currently do.
Remember you would have to be completely #stupidindividualism to only see this as “my” story, it’s obviously not 🙂
If you keep doing the same thing, there will be the same outcome. Different world views have different process and sometimes different outcomes.
All the #OMN projects are based on a different world view that we know can work to build “society” with scaling limitations and combining this with using #openweb tech that we know can scale.
The problem we face is communicating this to people who have NO knolage of either of these things or ONLY knolage of one of these things.
When they have no knolage of this subculture that all our civil rights are based on, they apply their all-knowing #mainstreaming “common sense” to BLOCK the needed process and codeing, or more normally simply ignore it.
Ideas?
#mainstreaming is obviously a #deathcult we do need to keep saying this. There are well document alt’s that I push with every use of the hashtags #OGB #OMN #4opens etc. The problem we way too often face is people wanking liberal “common sense” in the era of the #deathcult so need to make this point forcefully.For our liberals (of every type) this comes across as toxic positively if they can see the positive side at all. When they don’t I call this #BLOCKING and often get blocked for doing so.
Compost and shit comes to mind, shit is good compost, so this is NOT actually a negative statement, it’s part of the story, in radical grassroots direct action you need to go through trying meany people to build a affinity group that makes a difference. http://hamishcampbell.com/2022/09/19/
People who PUSH “solutions” while they are obviously bowed down eyes on the ground to the #deathcult are pushing problems, not solutions. This is not an obvious statement to our “liberals” thus they way to often PUSH “solutions” over real working alternatives. #BLOCKING and adding to the social mess and #techshit we need to compost.
No matter how “nice” they are as individuals, their, perhaps well intended, work is a problem adding to the mess. I should not need to talk about this, but lets as few people I know understand these obverse points:
* Liberals talk about individuals, they talk about personal actions and personal responsibility. This is how you tell you are talking to a liberal.
* socialists, anarchists and leftists talk about social groups, community actions, social change and challenge. This is how you tell you are talking to a radical progressive.
So try judging people you are talking about to get a better idea who is #BLOCKING and who has the possibility of doing anything useful.
We need non #deathcult #mainstreaming there are meany ideas to make this happen but no agreement on which one to take 🙂
I am into grassroots as have long expirence of this working at local levels and federation gives us an option to try this for larger groups, that is worth trying #OGB
The problem we face is that most of these tech project paths we know do not work, as the same #geekproblem projects has been tried meany times over the last 20 years.
One thing we need to do is focus on stopping this utterly pointless #techchurn to focus on things we don’t actually know are going to fail… but yes, you would be right to point out we don’t know these ideas will work as we haven’t tried them yet…
This is a good problem to have #OGB
“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.”
People are shaped by the “dominant social thinking” this should not be a radical thing to say as its obverses. People survive by deigning this, blinded to this obverse thinking. To stay blind, they #BLOCK challenges to their blindness.
Why do people choose to be blind in our sunlight world? There is a circle here, people who push #mainstreaming agenda are “reworded” and those who push agenst are “punished”. The desire to be blinded, to live bowed down and prostrate eyes turned to the darkness come from this simple reword and punishment that binds together the current social mess we sadly think is normal.
“(Men) make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.”
People find meaning and build their lives in the twilight, constantly pushing away glints of light that might illuminant too strongly the social squallier and everyday cruelty there #mainstreaming has pushed out into the shadows away from them, to hide just out of the light.
The human condition has always embedded this desire/need for blindness, yes, sometimes we have rebelled, the era of the enlightenment, some fractions of the 20th century are examples, most times and most people have conformed, we have strong confirmatory today.
This is expressed in different ways in different times, in the post-modern and dogmatic liberal times we live in I find #stupidindividualism to be descriptive, a shard of light to blind the averted eyes, if people take the time to acclimatize to the gloom this illuminates they might find themselves and there “community” a path out of this mess.
The is hope here, you can take the “stupid” away from “individualism” a simple idea, though a not easy path to take #OMN
A conversation with the #NGO side of social technology:
A. Just booked my place for ePIC next month in Lille. It’ll be my first time on the Eurostar!
https://epic.openrecognition.org
A decade ago, it was the first conference I went to as Mozilla’s Badges & Skills lead. Time flies.
#OpenBadges #VerifiableCredentials #ePortfolios #conference #travel
Q. these things are kinda hopelessly expensive. You have to worship the #deathcult to attend… Hard to know what to do with these two track approaches… Kinda can’t be #openweb are the any that are happening outside the temples of death #XR
Ps this is a metaphor 🙂
A. I think that’s a complicated way of saying you can’t afford to go?
Q. is a social comment about events like this, there are a lot of them. How can non #mainstreaming people get involved in #openweb events like this, a good subject for you to bring up, if you would, thanks. Ps. Not #stupidindividualism I should not have to say that.
A. My opinion is that you can’t have your cake and eat it? You can’t live outside the mainstream, throw rocks at it, and then complain when it doesn’t accommodate you?
Q. yep, I have spent my whole life outside the #mainstreaming, much of it building up and working on #openweb projects and content. Do you not find what you just said cruel and dismissive? Good to think on this and hopefully bring it up at the event. Not picking on you here, or attacking you, social commentary is not a bad thing on the #openweb
A. Social commentary is not what you’re doing here. You’re just replying to me to reinforce your worldview. So no, I don’t think I’m being cruel and dismissive. Perhaps you should think about your theory of change about how you’re going to build a constituency of people to change the world? It’s certaintly not by being a reply-guy 🙄
Q. dismissive and curl second time. Now this is just being a prat “It’s certainly not by being a reply-guy” OK, please have a think about how to bring the #openweb away from the current #mainstreaming that events like this embody (due to cost) as we are heading for social/environmental disaster fast, the is no good outcome from the #deathcult we all worship, we do need a working #openweb for a better outcome.
A. So you reply to me with the #deathcult hashtag after I share excitement about going to an event? And I’m being unreasonable? I’ve never had a positive interaction with you, Hamish. You might wear that as a badge of honour, but I’ve finally realised it’s time to mute you. Good luck.
Q. OK, please have a think about how to bring the #openweb away from the current #mainstreaming that events like this embody (due to cost) as we are heading for social/environmental disaster fast, the is no good outcome from the #deathcult we all worship, we do need a working #openweb for a better outcome.
Are you the one saying “now is not the time” If this is you, get off your knees and lift your head and look at the mess you have made.