We need fresh thinking on this mess

There will be lots of VERY bad behaver from the every side in this #openweb reboot, let’s try and keep diversity of voices in place with #4opens process. Please don’t become a prat, as it’s easy to start, and it’s hard to stop, mess and more mess.

Prat ish behaver comes in waves, that matches the waves of #mainstreaming and the Alt reaction to them, this flotsam can make things messy so good to shovel and compost.

Our main #blocking in alts is from our blinded #postmodernists and the culture they have spread for the last ten years… this is very messy and will do damage. As this is a form of “common sense” it’s hard to compost.

We need fresh thinking on this mess.

On the #openweb us and them is simple, we have to define things then collectively fight as hard as we can to keep that definition #4opens #KISS

#openweb spaces, a lot of social suicidal behaver – people strive to destroy the #openweb by pushing non “native” #NGO structures and paths. It’s a hard thing to pushback on, it’s #mainstreaming “common sense” bad behaver and a VERY bad outcome, please try not to be this problem.

Talking to friendly people who have built their careers on and in #postmodernism

I have been at the coal face of affective direct action for a progressive change/challenge of the current mess for all my life, well this is a family history going back 3 generations. And this makes meany issues obvious as they keep happening, they circal, and if we are to be the change we need to be, we need to mediate some of these bad circles #KISS

This is one #blocking

Q. Dude will tie themselves into knots rationalising their desire to be selfish by citing everything between Aristoteles, John Dewey, and utilitarianism, in lengthy hyper-complex intellectual posturing that basically just boils down to: “But I wanna!”

A. This is true, with the #postmodern default we would end up with mess. What happens if we try not to do the postmodernist default? What would that looklike #nothingnew

Q. This has nothing to do with postmodernism and everything to do with dudes rationalising their own selfishness.

A. You are not wrong, but step back for a wider view to try and see and talk about the root of this mess. I would say this is an example of #blocking from the #postmodern path. Can we look at this from a #modernist view to take a different path? Good faith question.

Q. So, I did a PhD that focused on the application of Derrida’s ideas to interactivity. I’m not the guy you come at trying to blame postmodernism for all the world’s ills.

A. can understand that, trying to highlight the bad use of the #mainstreaming of #postmodernism and highlight this in the current social mess of the last 40 years. And yes, understand that #postmodernisam and #neoliberalism are dead ideologies. But they have both deeply shaped the last 40 years of #mainstreaming culture. The mess we work in today, thus it is useful to ask questions on good paths out of this mess.

Q. Yeah, that’s nonsense. Sorry, not sorry. It’s all capitalism all the way down. Philosophical movements such as postmodernism or modernism are just window-dressing on an amoral, anti-intellectual capitalist hellscape. Any philosophical movement, even the ones that power actually pays attention to such as utilitarianism, is just completely irrelevant. Deck chairs on the Titanic.

Q. OK we can leave this here… if ideas and thinking do not matter then mess it is. Mess can be good, and it can be bad, in the current social mess it’s VERY bad https://visionon.tv/w/gq6qCiUoC2J8RqhYHgpmzq how to deal with this is a good faith question.

Q. Also, I always have an extreme scepticism about those who blame postmodernism for society’s ills because a lot of the anti-postmodernists are bedfellows with reactionaries who think these cultural ideas have mainstreamed moral and sexual degeneracy, which is just code for homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny.

A. Can continue this if you like. Let’s put this one into the #mainstreaming miss use of #postmodernisam the is a lot of this, kinda of a natural outcome, it’s a mess. Am with Chomsky on this one https://visionon.tv/w/p/kaafmbuLWyASifGg7DZ9y3 What would a #modernist path out of the current mess look like? And yes, I understand there is a bad history. Let’s not re tread that path. What is a good path? An example is #XR “tell the truth” is a modernist path. Tell the “truths” it is not.

Q. No, let’s retread that path. You’re repurposing the argument of the religious right. They blame society’s decline on postmodernism having mainstreamed moral relativism. You don’t get to gloss over the fact that this is specifically an attack against gay rights, trans rights, and women’s rights. There is no causal link between the state of the world and postmodernism. It’s all about power and money. Blaming postmodernism sides you with the most hateful reactionaries around

A. Think this is easy to answer.

And worth talking about, there are overlaps between the economics of #neoliberalism and the use of #postmodern philosophy over the last 40 years. We have a HUGE social mess, and no social language or thinking to compost this mess. We need a way of thinking, #Modernism is a shovel, we have lots of mess to compost.

Q. You are not making any sense whatsoever. What matters is who is in power. If you want change, you need to change who is in power using whatever nonviolent, peaceful means available. Blaming postmodernism and “social mess” sounds to me like you’re just a reactionary who wants to walk back gay rights, reproductive rights, trans rights, women’s rights, and civil rights in general. It sounds like bigotry. Postmodernism and “moral relativism” is a favourite punching bag of the religious right and fascists. When you come at me with the same kind of rhetoric, I have to assume that you’re sympathetic to their ideas on society and culture.

A. Am obviously not talking about that. Defensiveness and personalizing this is not useful, apart from it illustrates what am talking about. https://visionon.tv/w/sNo39CPaX7MswQ57tVy2TR mess and more mess. Is #modernism useful for taking a different path is what am asking.

“look these guys are covered in mess we can’t work with them…”

#fediverse we are going to have waves of #mainstreaming people coming into “our” #openweb counter currents, bringing a lot of non-native, unthinking blinded mess with them, they will push this mess over us as common sense then they will retreat back to #mainstreming and point at us covered in mess… “look these guys are covered in mess we can’t work with them…”

Yes this is bad behaver, ideas please?

The question am asking is who is creating the mess and the very uncommon sense but obvues answer is “they” are. Composting comes to mind, do you need a shovel #OMN

And yes, the “us” and “them” are in quote marks, to highlight the need for more composting.

#fashernistas are invested in the world of as it is

#fashernistas are invested in the world of as it is, are driven by trends and the desire to be seen as normal. It is a critiquing the tendency of some people to value things that come from #mainstreaming sources.

The tag #mainstreaming is obviously crap blinded behaver that leads to people being “blinded” by the influence of #mainstreaming culture, ingrained in these people, rather than something they are consciously choosing. They are not open to alternative perspectives.

“It’s a mess to be composted,” a metaphor that the problem is deep and systemic, and requires a significant amount of effort and time to address. Composting involves breaking down organic matter into nutrient-rich soil, which can then be used to grow new plants. In this case, the metaphor implies that the current system of valuing mainstream sources over alternative perspectives needs to be broken down and transformed into something new and more sustainable.

I find it less messy to talk about the “protocol wars” of #bluesky #Nostr #activertypub from a social understanding.

Listening to the #mainstreaming of the 3 protocol mess, we have a building signal-to-noise issue. We need to push signal, so good to think before you share something that is likely more noise on this subject.


As a way out of this, I have been pushing bridges for a while as they are the lowest common denominator and can be built and implemented “permissionless” to allow people to cross #4opens protocols. “Permissionless” is important as the is no way you would get consensus to do this, without adding much more mess. Technically people codeing the protocols are bussey with tribalism to focus on cross protocol interop… or they would not be building a new protocol

The advantage of a bridge is you do not have to get the codebase to change their project – it’s just a relay that connects one protocol to another, “permissionless”. Nobody has to federate, they can unfederate from a relay if they don’t like it.

It’s a BAD, good tech solution, and likely the best we can do to mediate the current squealing mess our #fahernistas make.

All the projects are actually kinda good, they are mostly #4opens and #openweb native this is a BIG move away from the #dotcons so good – TICK

I find it less messy to talk about the “protocol wars” of #bluesky #Nostr #activertypub from a social understanding.

They all share #4opens #openweb tech, so this is a win.

Where they differ is in the “culture” they come from and push.

#bluesky comes from surveillance capitalism, it’s from the #dotcons 1 and has meany of the same assumptions, just “better”.

#Nostr comes from the #encryptionists and #bitcoin bro crew and suffers from being from this mess.

#activertypub is #openweb native and comes from the #4opens traditions the whole software world is actually built on.


For us guys building on #activertpub, it’s important to keep focus that the #Fediverse was built on “trust” and will likely fail fast if we move to building it on “fear”

The world walks right past us looking the other way and takes the big bundle of bills from capitalism.

OK, had to close then open new accounts on #visionontv #peertube because of #spam, the spam is starting agen – there is an update that allows you to put new accounts on ask/moderation, we need to upgrade at some point to get this.

Interesting this is exactly the way our ten-year-old #OMN project handles flows as is the “new” moderation in #bluesky… if we don’t manage to go to the world, the world come to us… well more like the world walks right past us looking the other way and takes the big bundle of bills from capitalism.

This is normal, we are still doing needed work, but better would be good to 🙂

#bluesky #Nostr #activertypub

They all share #4opens #openweb tech, so this is a win.

Where they differ is in the “culture” they come from and push.

#bluesky comes from surveillance capitalism, it’s from the #dotcons and has meany of the same assumptions, just “better”.

#Nostr comes from the #encryptionists and #bitcoin bro crew and suffers from being from this mess.

#activertypub is #openweb native and comes from the #4opens traditions the whole software world is actually built on.


The #KISS path is to simply bridge them all and let them cooperate, as they are all a part of the #openweb family.

The more complex and messy path is that some of them might not want to do this… OK now we get to the part where piss is likely signal rather than noise. Let’s draw a line, (a date is good) if they don’t bridge, we let loose the pee, liquid trickling in will short out their servers.

Ending thought:

For a lot of our #fashernistas in our spaces, things only matter if they come from #mainstreaming this is obviously crap blinded behaver – but it’s hard to communicate why, likely they can’t see me 😉

PS. I liked that joke.

The risk of co-optation or watering down of the original #openweb values and principles

Talking to the person behind https://spreadmastodon.org/ 

Had a look through his https://bluem.ventures/ list of projects, it’s all Slacktivism – Wikipedia 2 and #NGO pushing.

Asked him, “Have you taken a moment or two to think this might be seen, on balance, as damage rather than helping the #openweb culture of the communers who built the spaces you are going to be pushing at? It’s important not to be doing blinded Imperialism – Wikipedia coming into a “commons” space.”

Issues on this here Activism can we try and address these issues, to mediate the balance of damage/good before you push the project out, thanks.

#openweb culture comes from the principles and values of the early internet, where open standards and decentralized systems were prioritized over closed, proprietary ones. This culture is based on the idea of a free and open internet, where anyone can participate and create without the need for gatekeepers.

#Slacktivism is a term used to describe online activism that requires minimal effort or engagement, such as signing an online petition or changing your social media profile picture. While these actions can raise awareness about an issue, they are criticized for being insincere and ineffective in creating real change.

#NGOs, or non-governmental organizations, are involved in social activism and advocacy work. However, they are criticized for promoting their own agendas rather than empowering the communities they claim to serve. This can create a power imbalance, where the voices and needs of the community are not heard or prioritized.

We need to think about the #mainstreaming of these issues’ due to the increasing visibility and attention they are pushing in the wider public, move back to the #openweb.

With this shift in attention comes the risk of co-optation or watering down of the original values and principles. It is important to be on guard and maintain a healthy balance, ensuring that the voices and needs of communities are prioritized and that efforts are not insincere or ineffective.

The new #spreadmastodon project needs to balance the damage with the good it does with its outreach project.

The wider #Fediverse relying heavily on a single platform, mastodon or instance https://mastodon.social, can have negative consequences. Leading to a concentration of power and influence in the hands of a few individuals and entities. This can result in issues such as censorship, lack of innovation, and a loss of privacy for users.

Additionally, if a single server or platform is responsible for hosting a significant portion of user data or activity, it could become a target for cyberattacks or data breaches.


#SSB splintering a “commons”

Another link that is pure #geekproblem but interesting for #OMN in that #SSB is splintering https://www.manyver.se/blog/2023-04-05

@rabble is involved in another splinter #nosta

How protocols die… #SSB was a protocol that they all reallyed round, a “commons”, we now have 3 “commons” on the table. The rabble one which has hidden #VC money behind it, then this individualist one https://www.manyver.se/blog/2023-04-05 which will maybe rally the grassroots, and the original #SSB which might or might not carry on.

We don’t have a cross culture “common” any more. A clean separation of the #mainstreaming and the #grassroots. To make this relevant, the same is likely going to happen to #ActivertyPub when the #W3C “formal consensuses” is captured by the #dotcons

The enclosure of commons is always a bad path. And yes not saying #SSB was a good protocol it was not, it came from the encryptionsists, but it was a rare “commons”.

#AP is a good/bad protocol, we don’t need to do the same path. Thus, the message to #socialhub, 95% chance they will ignore it or more likely see it as weakness and attack harder, cats…

“The is currently an undeclared battle going on between the rebooted #WC3 and the grassroots (#fashernista dominated) #socialhub for power. If the libertarian cats can’t herd themselves to do something useful, like we managed with the #EU outreach – currently they cannot do this, have a feeling socialhub will lose.

Not a big problem, but a dangerous outcome for #ActivityPub as #WC3 is formal consensus which is easy to capture and control for the #dotcons – where socialhub libertarian cats have failed messy consensuses so less open to capture.

But from my view the libertarian cats are being prats as cats are… so WC3 is stepping back in to CONTROL… how to herd cats – should I try? Or keep focus on #OMN codeing is a question am asking my self?

@xxx @xxx@xxx, have tried building bridges, but no foundation stones laid on this building work. Honest question are we helping or hindering in this grassroots space?”

There is a small chance they act, we did herd cats on #socialhub for the #EU outreach. This is why I bring it up, though, think people can only see the power politics and not what am saying when doing this. Agen 5% chance of a good outcome…

Maybe this helps to make the “mess” metaphor clearer. For the #geekproblem they likely have no idea about the damage they do. Because in their terms they are mostly right. Step back to look at the wider picture, and it’s obviously adding to the mess to be composed.

The #geekproblem

Storeys of our tech http://hamishcampbell.com/2023/04/05/ssb-splintering-a-commons/ a post that give background on #SSB and its splintering as an example.

Why this matters, the #openweb is the most powerful tool for change/challenge. The mess we are in The moral depravity of virtue signalling solidarity at this time of mass murder – Roger Hallam The moral depravity of virtue signalling solidarity at this time of mass murder


A native path out of the mess people make on the #openweb

The Open Governance Body (#OGB) describes a permissionless process/structure that is open and allows the group that forms using the tools to decide who is a part of the group or not. This process can divide into a web of connecting instances of governance as a natural human process of group formation. The #OGB emphasizes that there is no exclusion and always diversity, making it a natural fit for the #fediverse.

The #OGB also shows that if people are stupid and focused on individualism, each governance instance will have one member and no power. To gain power, people have to work together, which is built into the code. The #OGB emphasizes that hoarding power is limited, and it flows through the community, energizing and solidifying the community and building horizontal power to challenge/change vertical power.

The #OGB focus is on the importance of keeping things simple (#KISS) and that some people will try to push for existing power structures before democracy. However, as the process is permissionless, it is not possible to stop them from doing this. The #OGB emphasizes the need to do better, and that being native to the #fediverse is a big help in this regard.

The #OGB emphasizes the importance of recognizing where power comes from in the context of the #fediverse. The fediverse operates differently from corporations, governments, courts, and police, and it is important to think and build with this difference rather than trying to drag the fediverse back to the #mainstreaming path.

The #OGB builds from the #fediverse works because it is different, and it is easy to forget this important thing when #mainstreaming agendas grab and hold. The #OGB suggests that the missing question in almost all conversations is “who are we empowering,” and emphasizes the need to do better in alt-tech.

The #OGB notes that there are problems in alt-tech and suggests that starting with the #4opens would remove 90% of the mess, revealing the real potential for good outcomes. The #OGB highlights that doing better in alt-tech would involve using shovels to make compost and planting seeds of the world we want to see.

The #OGB describes the process scaffolding for the governance body as a default effect, where the decisions on how things work will be up to the members of the body. The power of the governance body is only the power of default, and the #OGB is about removing all hard default choices and building in a small number of KISS tools, then letting the body members work out themselves how to use them.

The #OGB uses the example of #Couchsurfing, where the website redesign removed the #DIY tools active Couchsurfers had used to self-organize, leading to disappointment among members. The #OGB argues that letting members make their own process, open vs. closed, is necessary to overcome the #geekproblem and have hope for alt-tech.

The #OGB builds governance with the way, rules, norms, and actions are structured, sustained, regulated, and held accountable. this is to mediate that the #Fediverse currently has a “herding cats” governance, denoting a futile attempt to control or organize a class of entities that are inherently uncontrollable.

The #OGB codebase is not just a tool for the #Fediverse, but it can be used to democratically run any structures that have stakeholders.

The #OGB provides an example of how the codebase can be used to run a local street market, with each stallholder as a stakeholder, people who shop at the market as users, and the local council, events company, and shop owner’s association as affiliate groups. The #OGB approach and codebase will scale sideways, with street markets governed city-wide, and each of the markets becoming a stakeholder, users as users, and city-wide orgs and groups as affiliate groups.

The #OGB shaping of the “body” comes from a long history/experience of horizontal activism, where “those who do the work have more say.” noisebridge.net/wiki/Do-ocracy

The #OGB pushes that the bulk of the voice comes from those who run the #Fediverse, the people who run/support the instances. The people who build the tools also get a say, as do support orgs and events, and the users who will be spread widely get a say, but their power is diluted by the much larger numbers involved.

This working practice comes from 30 years of building from The Tyranny of Structureless tick box list https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/openwebgovernancebody/wiki/03.-The-Tyranny-of-Stucturelessness That code being quite “anti-human” is an interesting challenge, and it’s important to figure out how to get the humane “mess” in a coding process that is based on being “exact” and in control #OGB

The #OGB project is grounded in lived experience, and it’s a way out of this mess. We cannot keep using traditional institutions. We have to stop the #techcurn if we are going to use #openweb tech for social/ecological change/challenge, and we need to think about this now.

The #OGB project is about developing better ways of having “trust” based conversations and “trust” based “governance” in the #openweb. The project is built from hundreds of years of on the ground organizing that has shaped every “freedom” we enjoy and is done in a #KISS approach. The #OGB is a #fedivers native way of working, NOT a #mainstreaming way, and it comes from directly working, setting up, and solving recurring problems at hundreds of direct action protest camps.

The #OGB focus on what we know works, as at the moment, almost nothing works for social good. The #OGB project is what is needed, a voluntary cooperative and collaborative alliance that is native to the #fediverse.

The thinking is that we need to put a stop to the #techchurn as we have piles of #techshit already to compost, that #nothingnew is a hashtag for this.

It’s not the goal of the #OGB project to create an organization that tells everyone what protocols and standards to use in the #fediverse. The #OGB project is about developing better ways of having good “trust” based conversations and “trust” based “governance” in the #openweb

To sum up, the current working models of “governance” in open-source projects are monarchy, aristocracy and oligarchy. This is the rock star developer, the coders and the funders. It should be obverse to anyone that 99.99% of people are missing from this feudalistic ideal of “governance”.

Democracy is the basic foundation of our shared modernity.


Let’s take a different path, please #OGB

Q. that is an optimistic projection

A. I have no illusion that the normal shitty behaver of fucking people over and being a prat will happen, but the codebase is designed to mediate this crap behaver for better outcomes 🙂

#OGB “permissionless” is an important word that needs some thought. The body is made up of three different, balanced groups: stakeholders, users, and affiliate stakeholders. Anybody can become a stakeholder by setting up and running an active instance, and users are self-explanatory. That affiliate stakeholders are a little more complex and are treated differently, and it’s up to the body itself to decide if they play an active and useful role.

That nothing in this is top-down, elitist, discriminatory, or undemocratic, and it’s #KISS and looks safe to the “normal world” while being native to the #fediverse and its roots. All the coding is #4opens, based on #activertypub.

With #OGB, it’s important not to get lost in the #processgeeks and their dogmatic love of #formalconsensus, as that’s a dead end and has been for the 30 years of activism and coding tech. It’s important to keep the #OGB both #KISS and human, understandable. The #OGB is native “governance” and federates in the same way as the projects it “governs”. That this approach is counterintuitive to mainstream ideas and “common sense,” but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

This approach has worked to some extent, as seen in the “#Fediverse” as a living example, working to scale small to bigger. There will be lots of “smoke,” and help is needed to keep the project clear of this mess. We have to overcome our #stupidindividualism to have a hope of a better world.

#OGB To remind you that the need for “governance” came out of a practical problem where the #activitypub community is made up of “cats” who were doing seminars outreach to powerful #EU Eurocrats on why they should be interested in #activertypub. #OGB is designed to be messy and not tidy, and it’s a “governance” of a disorganization, not a traditional power structure. “governance” can cooperate with more formal models of governance like traditional cooperatives.

Why would you be the right person to build the #OMN

The social change/challenge project of an organic intellectual is an act of love and a gift economy. Each toot and each hashtag is a gift. The #OMN hashtag story is designed to make people who often unconsciously worship the #deathcult (an obvious metaphor for #neoliberalism) and have internalized the last 40 years of the dead philosophy of #postmodernism uncomfortable.

The idea is that from these small openings, people can try to step outside this mess and challenge the status quo. To build the #OMN, we are looking for the tiny minority who can still think outside this mess and are willing to challenge the #mainstreaming narrative. The project is a call to action for those who want to create a more equitable and just society.

#boatingeurope at anchor for a few days on the Medway. Metaphorically, am  taking the piss outa #stupidindividualism. The reality picture would have 4–5 boats rafted up with a disparate crew having a barbi.